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I'm having a hard time with the corporate contests...I love the challenge and while I'm not a professional graphic designer I feel like I am capable of coming up with at least a few good ideas.
My only issue is with the voting which as I've already seen seams to to be an ongoing issue.
My $0.02....
I hate when my logos get voted so low and no one says why they voted low. I almost feel everyone who votes should have to explain their vote, haha. Much longer voting process but it would probably end up being more fair and help people a lot more than just a low score.
I'm am going to follow my own advice unless they as for no critique.
Anyway that's what I'm going to do to try and help.
I agree a lot of constructive criticism can be obtained by critique corner, my suggestion was to make people accountable for their votes...
On 9/19/2009 10:26:08 PM, tehdirector said:
I agree a lot of constructive criticism can be obtained by critique corner, my suggestion was to make people accountable for their votes...
Good luck with that hope and dream...we can't even get all the people who enter a contest to consistently vote in those contests. If they care that little about that, thinking they'll start voting after making it harder just isn't going to work.
I have been instructed to "wait and see" how the new W1K corporate site will be handled, so I guess I'll pay that comment forward blindly, hoping that many of the corporate voting issues get either fully resolved or at least given some attention and made better.
But give 'em credit (the W1K folks)...it could actually be a lot worse. Just keep in mind that the main goal is to design for the client and have them pick your logo, not to have some greedy, average Joes who don't know the first thing about principles of design lowballing a design.
Also, let me just be the person to say it, since I took the advice and did it. Going to the critics corner after the fact is complete crap.
Sure you might get a few helpful comments, but the fact still remains that the people who should be critiquing/voting, i.e the other contestants, are not giving you their input.
It seems to me that if people are complaining about the voting system after each and every contest that takes place here, that it is clearly flawed and in need of some sort of transformation. Hopefully, the new site addresses that.
Just some ideas but how about after 3 no votes, you are out? Forget this whole "we can't force people to vote" mentality. From where I stand that is the problem. People are not looking at losing Karma as a serious enough punishment for not voting. What about greater rewards for voting? These are just ideas, but hey, they might work.
I am not really complaining, okay maybe I am, I am just saying somethig needs to be done to get more people to vote, especially on contests where money is involved, such as corporate.
[Edited by User on 9/21/2009 10:21:42 AM]
On 9/21/2009 10:19:21 AM, sarahb86 said:
Just some ideas but how about after 3 no votes, you are out? Forget this whole "we can't force people to vote" mentality. From where I stand that is the problem. People are not looking at losing Karma as a serious enough punishment for not voting.
Regardless of how people vote kicking them out is not beneficial to the site. People come here for logo designs, the more designs the better in a clients eye (which in turn brings more clients due to the abundance of choices) so stopping someone from entering just because of voting is silly. The client decides who wins, end of story and in the end entry is free and the client is the only one who is paying anything and therefore the one that should be kept happy.
How about, since it's the client who picks what logo they go with, regardless of the rankings, we have the client pick their top pick and then 2 runner-ups? Therefore, no voting at all. Resulting in no threads about this same subject once every couple of days. No offense, but it's like beating a dead dog with a stick.
There's nothing to be sorry about. It's just that admin. is well aware of the problems with voting in the corporate section. Lets all just be confident that they are devising a way to deal with the issues in the new worth.
And actually, the main subject about your thread wasn't really about the voting per se, it was about the lack of comments. The thing that usually happens is that alot of the threads about corporate contests start off about one thing but end up getting derailed into being a thread about bad voting and what the admins can do to fix it.
[Edited by User on 9/21/2009 1:00:44 PM]
Sounds like the admins have had a lot of advice on how to fix it. I'll just wait for the new worth to fix it.
On a side note. I do feel like for the most part the best entries are voted to the top few but there are almost always some great entries that for unexplained reasons end up at the bottom. That and no explanation for why a low vote was cast were my original concerns.
Just a few comments:
It is a shame that so many people don't vote or low-rank entries, but I think you'll find that *all* entries scale down at about the same rate. They still land in the same top to bottom order, or close enough, just at lower scores than they deserve.
Forcing people to vote (who already don't care about karma) will result in 30 extra people giving all ones to get it over with.
Taking away the voting (letting client pick top 3) takes away a valuable side service provided to the client, the w1k "focus group". Not only do they get a variety of logos to choose from, but a variety of logos that have been voted on, commented on, etc.
Rhinerium said
It is a shame that so many people don't vote or low-rank entries, but I think you'll find that *all* entries scale down at about the same rate. They still land in the same top to bottom order, or close enough, just at lower scores than they deserve.
Actually the system forces everyone to vote lower. Think about it: if I'm fair - or at least trying to be - and I vote high, then my deviation from the average is high, therefore I loose karma and my opinion weights less. If I vote middle/middle low, then my deviation is okay, my karma goes up which means my vote counts more.
Mathematically the best strategy for one - to gain karma and get a nice place - is never to vote higher than 5 (since +/- 4 points deviation is okay and an entry hardly gets a 10) and never to vote under 4 or 3 for the same reasons. If an entry is really bad, one may risk to vote 1 or 2 but that's all.
If one enters a contest and votes fairly (high if an entry deserves it... as high as 8-9) one can be very sure that her/his entry will end up in a lower position, therefore one won't vote high... see my point?
Since the new voting history is better than the old one, see it for yourself. :o)
For example here: http://logo.worth1000.com/vote-history/23926/DBS-Telecom/vote-history
I do agree, that taking away the voting system from the corporate arena is not a good idea, however I think one shouldn't be allowed to vote if entered a contest. Because if someone is involved, her/his objectivity - for me - is more than questionable.
You never see an athlete jurying other athletes' performances, do you? :o)
Please don't take this a complaint, it is not. Just my humble opinion. And I'm planning to continue voting fairly high :o)
All the more reason to have as many corporate Power Voters as possible.
@Octavius:
I consider myself to be a very fair voter. Corporate is the only section I vote regularly so I'm lucky not to have to worry about how it effects my karma. Because of this I have always voted completely w/o concern for my deviation and guess what? I have 175 karma. Do I frequently vote in the middle? sure, but only because most entries will inherently be "average" and thus fall in the middle. I make use of everything from 1-10 (admittedly having used both 1 and 10 prbly less than 5 times total) and frequently use 2s and 9s. Voting fair in corporate is *not* a karmic death sentence.. unless one's definition of "fair" is not very fair at all.
I understand that you don't enter contests, but vote - mainly on corp. contests - which is a tremendously great thing and you do have all my respect for that, however my comment was about the relation between voting, being involved - as a contestant - and karma, and that how they affect each other in this system.
I don't see you karma now - or mine, which must be about 130 or so at the moment, and growing :o) , but it doesn't really matter - but if you check out any voting history in the corporate section, you'll probably find that top-runners are usually vote as I've said.
I think that this is not conspiration theory, but in fact it is - kind-of - a strategy which wouldn't affect the results if there was much more voters, but does because there aren't :o)
Of course to win a contest first you have to enter with a good work :o) , and I do know that smart people will always find the limits of any rule or system and will balance on the edge... so why not think it over if we know all this? :o)
Note: please do use the 'reply' link under this, 'cos otherwise I don't get noticed - sadly - that you have an opinion to share with me I'm interested in.
I had a little time so I've tried to give some critiques on your entries, I hope you'll find helpful. Looking forward to your entries to come, because I think that you're talented even if you are not a pro or not that experienced. Keep it up and you will be much more better. :o)
Thank you so much!!!! I really appreciated your comments. Funny enough most of what you said I was thinking exactly that when creating the logo and just submitted as-is due to not having enough time. I'm going to take much more time on my next entry and try to plan it a little more. Thanks again, your comments helped a lot.
I agree with you.
The voting is Very dodgy. The client should have the final say and people who enter should not be allowed to vote - NOT EVEN UNDER A DIFFERENT EMAIL ADDRESS! The source needs to be checked.
If you have evidence that someone is voting under different accounts, please contact me immediately. I will be very interested and will deal with it. We try hard to catch folks doing this, and I think we do a reasonable job of it. If we miss some, help us out.
If you don't have evidence, then please don't make baseless accusations in the open forums.
Regardless of how the votes go, the client DOES have the final say of which logo they want to use. I don't know if the clients even see the scores of every entry when deciding or if they just get the files sent to them. Maybe an admin. could clarify that. Since scores are completely irrelevant when the client gets to choose the logo they want, I would think they aren't privy to that information.
How voting is handled in the corporate section is not changing anytime soon. Most of our high karma users never ventured into the corp section for fear of reducing their karma. Hopefully the separation of corporate karma to the rest of the site will encourage more users to vote.
Client's can see the contest results like everyone else. As most already know, the client does not always pick a trophy winner for the cash prize.
Ok, I was wrong. Hasn't been the first time. Thanks for the clarification Corp. :)
Supagray said
Regardless of how people vote kicking them out is not beneficial to the site. People come here for logo designs, the more designs the better in a clients eye (which in turn brings more clients due to the abundance of choices) so stopping someone from entering just because of voting is silly. The client decides who wins, end of story and in the end entry is free and the client is the only one who is paying anything and therefore the one that should be kept happy.
QFT
